Let us not alienate the masses with our rhetoric


I am not convinced that this is the step that is necessary now. :slight_smile: We can open a discussion with Guenther for each and every attempt at “sanitizing” his language, as he explained like a very reasonable person. Some discussions we will win, others we will lose. As a result, we will have a program that is still an ideological mess. I think that this is a discussion ES needs to have internally and face the public with a coherent image.
However, if you disagree with me, I am in. Let’s try to fix as much as possible.

Guenther, I am glad you have the opportunity to invest your time and attention in concepts and ideology, but most of the voters don’t and will not make the necessary effort to see beyond your indoctrination:

Hätte Goethe Suppen schmalzen,
Klöße salzen,
Schiller Pfannen waschen müssen,
Heine nähn, was er verrissen,
Stuben scheuern, Wanzen morden,
Ach die Herren,
Alle wären
Keine großen Dichter worden.

Emerenz Meier

I am baffled by your elitist insistence that only those very few who would actually subscribe to what you say is the right way to call things, are worthy of sharing values with you. It is your right to be as elitist as you wish, it is just the wrong way to write a political program of something that wants to be something more than a boutique party.
Furthermore, you are being absolutely disrespectful towards those people who suffered from these regimes by arrogantly disregarding their trauma. It is your right to be disrespectful towards anyone you wish, it is just the wrong way to write a political program of something that wants to be an EU party.

Le Monde diplomatique is a left-wing newspaper. Yanis Varoufakis is clever and respectful enough to think about the people he is addressing with a specific text, and not about himself. When he talks to literature students, he conveys his message through literature. When he talks to economics students, he conveys his message through economics. When he talks to left wingers who would be reading something French, he speaks left wing.
A political program is how a political party talks to the general population. It is not supposed to read like an article in Le Monde diplomatique.
Also, what someone, anyone, says does not define what a democratic political party is. If I want to know whether ES is radical left or not, I open its program and search for the word “radical”. If I don’t find it, then I feel free to claim that any radical value signalling language in there is something that needs to be polished.
Also, next time I invest my time into responding to specific points of what you said, have the decency to respond to the specific points I made and do not just pick one claim and then repeat the opinion you have already stated. This is not very useful for the discussion.


You may be right in many ways but I think this sounds like a prejudice because the reasons you have mentioned for your distrust towards this rhetoric is based on your previous experiences of your failed athoritarian governments. There are many indicators that European Spring is not similar with any of the political parties and turning blind eye on those indicators is not much acceptable for me.

From my point of view most of the Europe’s governments are shifting swiftly to being authoritarian yet their policies sound liberal and democratic. I can easily associate ES rhetoric that have been used one of the failed and hated governments in many countries. That cannot change my view on ES policies and will not make them less trustable.


If not now then when? The balance of opinion in this thread at least is, I think, sympathetic to these concerns so perhaps we can win this argument. Anyway, the program as it stands suffers from a number of typographical & grammatical errors which upset me and need fixing.

I’m abroad at the moment and struggling with internet access but will be back online next week.


Guys, you have made me unbelievable happy. And thank you Teodor for having initiated this thread.

I agree with most of the arguments that suggest a more historically and linguistically sensitive rhetoric for the ES.
How often have I talked to people about the ES and if I got them to the point to read a few lines of it, they turned their eyes. N.B. they were not from Eastern Europe.
And it’s even worse: One of them bluntly (but rightly as I have learned later on) told me that one of the core issues of the ES (democratising Europe) is showing a complete lack of knowledge about the European Treaties. For example the right to question the EU Commission with a vote of non confidence is already existent and has been used already seven times. [CORRIGENDUM: A simple vote of non confidence is not the same as a constructive vote of non confidence. Sorry for having misslead my readers.]

So, I think that ES badly needs a language and a fact check. Please consider me to be ready to work with you.


I also think this is an interesting and important thread. I don’t have anything to add today, I am just posting to bring it up the page as someone seems to be trying to alienate many of us by inundating the forum with largely irrelevent posts in German. I hasten to add that I have nothing against Germans, Germany nor even German.


I have asked the main author of this software platform (as, for example, the forum that we are currently using rests upon) if there is a document collaboration tool available on the platform. If not we can use another.

Are they using such a tool on the German language subforum? The link to the subforum mentions “program discussions and votes”. What does the subject prefix “Wahl-o-mat” signify?


Well, I have found out what Wahl-o-mat means (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahl-O-Mat) and unsurprisingly our German friends are well ahead of the Anglo Saxon pedants in this part of the world, a sentiment rather well illustrated by Frau Merkel yesterday: „Ich gebe zu, dass ich die Geschäftsordnung des britischen Parlaments aus dem 17. Jahrhundert nicht aktiv präsent hatte.“

Anyway, I’m not sure a Wahl-o-mat type tool is what we need for our collaboration, but I might be wrong?

PS: I now have two accounts on this forum, sorry about that.


I don’t see how we can use a Wahl-O-Mat here. I don’t know how to approach the problem, to be honest.


I agree.

I’ve just retrieved the program here:

and it is no longer called BetaProgramme and has doubled in page count since I downloaded the BetaProgramme on 3rd March.

Perhaps we are dealing with an evolving document? More likely I have failed to understand the process which has produced it and so I am now researching that.

A dynamic document held in a moderated wiki… might be a good fit to the breadth of the ambition (to unite Europe) and the urgency of the moment? Perhaps that’s what we have already, we need to find out!


Continuing the discussion from Let us not alienate the masses with our rhetoric:

In fact, Wahl-O-Mat (WOM) Is of absolutely no use for our purpose. It is a tool that helps identifying the political position of the user. The users of WOM are answering questions like “Should abortion be forbidden” or “ should the export of weapons be prohibited “. There is an algorithm that tells you whether you belong rather to the positions of the party x or y. The discussion going on in that thread was to define and possibly explain the position of Demokratie in Europa regarding the questions asked by the owner of WOM. In other words: We are delivering our answers to them in order that they can feed the algorithm properly.


I’ve had a reply from the author of the software platform:

Sorry we don’t have any collaborative editing tool. Also, let me say that it’s very unlikely your work can be integrated at this point, because we had a contribution period of nearly a year for the ES program and now we just had the final vote - quite difficult to organise across 10+ participating organisations - to approve the final version of the program.

and my response:

Not a surprise, on either count, but a pity nonetheless. The Iron Curtain lives on in the imagination and vocabulary of the East and to limit our appeal for lack of attention to detail in wording is lamentable. It surprises me that Srećko Horvat (amongst others) didn’t raise this issue, but perhaps he did, but lost the argument?

Anyway, we are where we are.

Carpe Diem!

So, I don’t think there is much we can do now, this side of the European elections?


I was afraid that whining on the internet is the most I would achieve at this point :slight_smile:
Fingers crossed that we get this issue fixed with time. Thank you!


Any Word used to decibe is deminishing. Lets say “person” is the most accurate Word then using Any other Word Will Create distance to that. And to the way we percieve