What is money really


#1

Am I alone in thinking that it’s the money system that needs to be addressed. One often hears from politicians, that there is not enough money to fund this or that health care, or pensions or whatever it may be. But this is simply not true, the ECB [ european central bank] and all state central banks control the money supply, and given that it’s all fiat currency backed up by nothing more that the trust of the citizens of the EU , should we not be changing the money issuing policy so that a fairer community can be achieved through a more people centred approach to the allocation of said fiat currency?


#2

Hello Padraig_C,
Indeed we need a new money system.
My proposal for this is European cooperative peoples bank


#3

I think the following article could be interesting for you:


Feel free to contact me if you’d like to dig deeper into Modern Monetary Theory … I can send you a huge pdf/book


#4

Thanks for the contact and article, which I’ve read, and I get it. But what can we do to make the basement bankers more accountable and equitable in the distribution of the money, surely public health should be free to everyone in the EU and provided at a uniform standard for starters.
Anyway, just a thought, and thanks again for your interest which I appreciate.


#5

Unfortunately the US, Canada, (almost) all countries in Europe and the rest of the world act like a normal country club and lend money from the private banks (private banking cartel). Most people think the public debt is because the governements spent to much money to nice things for the people or the endless needles wars and collected to lillte taxes to pay for this. In reality most countries spent more money to pay interest at the public debt since 1970 than the public debt is today. On top of this most countries paid also a lot of money to save the private banks. When we lower the present public debt with the exessive part of interest (interest above inflation + 0.1% till 0.2% per year) and the cost of saving the private banks many countries would not have a public debt anymore.

When we use the European cooperative peoples bank the governments are still something like a normal countryclub. And is the Cooperative Peoples Bank can never go bankrupt (is the basement bank of the countryclub). This bank can also create out of nothing an amount of money about 3 x GDP to buy / finance all real assets we need without creating debt. With this new bank we are no longer dependent to the private banks and the richest 1% who use the other 99% like milk cows…


#6

Thanks for that Hans, I wonder how this shift is to be brought about ? How do we bring the european coop peoples bank into existence, so that it is not dependant on the existing bank structure. I feel that the existing ecb wouldn’t particularly want that to get off the ground.


#7

Hello Padraig,
To be honest I don’t know how we can implement the European Cooperative Peoples Bank.
This is only possible when there is enough political will to do this.
Since 1980 the political climate is not in fafour for this.

Scenario 1

  • Make sure DIEM25 want this and get many votes and other left parties want this too
  • Implement the Public Digital Payment Platform
  • Change the law that private banks can not create money anymore
  • Put pensionfunds etc. to this new bank system
  • Change the public bank in a Cooperative Peoples Bank*

*When this is done we are save, till this moment we have more risk for dictatorship

Scenario 2

  • The best thing what can happen for this is that the Deutsche Bank collapse
  • Even the ECB can’t do nothing anymore to save the present financial system (chess mat)
  • Then we have to nationalize temporarily all financial institutions
  • Take out balance size of 500% GDP the 200% and better the 300% GDP we need for the cooperative bank
  • Delete the toxic part and put the healthy remaining part in the market again as business / investment banks

The last 2000 years I see most politicians feel more love for power than love for people so they will be more interested in implementing the positive / soevereign money system, this give them more power than the Cooperatieve Peoples Bank. Implementing the Public Digital Payment Platform is part of this approach.

Problem is the EU is not a democracy but a ? by European Commissison (28 not democratic chosen people). The EU parliament is in essence a show to make people believe we have a democracy.
Only the European Commission (EC) can put law proposals to vote about at the agenda of the EU parliament.
For a part of the law proposals the EC don’t need the EU pariament, they can just decide by them selfs.
What do you think the EC will do when they have the power of positive / soevereign money?
Large army, endless needless wars, more corruption?


#8

Hi Hans, how are you today?

I was just thinking that it might be a good idea to send your proposal regarding the peoples bank to all the candidates that are currently running for election in the DIEM25 elections, that may be a good way of spreading the suggestion.

Cheers

Pádraig.


#9

@Hans_v: I personally see Scenario 2 as the most likely. By the state of things at present it may well come true over the next 5 years or so. Our Banking System is so rotten it has to come down. Only this time we have to make sure that not again some misguided sociao democrats save the bankers again. Wipe out the toxic parts of Banking, make the shareholders pay and nationalise the boring, but necessary parts.


#10

@Padraig_C: If only you were Right and the central Banks created the Money! Unfortunately it´s the Banks themselves which do this.:frowning_face:


#11

I don’t see how we can avoid having private banks creating money.
When I bought my house a private bank gave me a loan that I spent 20 years paying off (+ interest). However, at the time I bought the house the bank paid the full value of the transaction to the previous owner. The bank didn’t actually have that money in cash, they just did an acounting operation and wrote out a credit to ther previous owner. This was a creation of money which took 20 years to be reabsorbed +interest.


#12

Sure, you’re right, there has to be a banking system, the issue is control, at the moment, its the banks have it all, even though they operate in our society, there has to be more social control of the money supply, otherwise we are all just slaves to the banks, [ well 99% of us anyway] , for instance,
health budgets could be outside the normal fiscal borrowing of governments, and be on a zero interest basis, I’m sure there are other creative ways of using the currency supply for the greater good.


#13

I don’t agree that a collapse of DB is a good idea. It would only hurt the most vulnerable the most, [ what else is new], but that does not mean that there can be more accountability at the top bank level, for instance, a five -7 year elected board, or part of the board, including the top position, thereby ensuring public accountability on on ongoing basis.

A write off of punitive debt so that citizens are not thrown on life’s scrap heap.

An acknowledgement by the banks that they serve the public and any deviation or corrupt practices or unjust enrichment to be liable to a sliding scale of fines, and or imprisonment.

One elected representative from each member state on the board.

A restatement of the ideology of banks away from the pure profit system to one of social support and interaction within the parameters of a free [ as far as possible] market economy.

How 'bout that for starters.

P.


#14

Well, the Country Club metaphor is an entertaining example for the money system but needs two additions in order to connect it to the world. Otherwise the money system would be limited to the country club.
Key is that the country club does not want to employ each of its members.
Hence, the country club needs to establish some sort of convertibility for its members to make sure they can rake in another member’s garden to make their ends meet - in the clubbers currency.
How to achieve this?
Just peg the clubber to a production resource that needs to be bought by each member, say oil, gas, or gold. That way, the clubber circulates among your members.
But the club members may decide to setup their own club and reject the clubbers’ currency.
Can this be prevented?
Yes, on application the club just ask its members to put their valuables such as gold into the its basement.
And on and off, the club destabilizes some of their non-members in order to make its members “feel” the privilege of being protected by/from(?) the club.
So, I am afraid that a banking system independent from the country club is going to backfire.

In addition, it’s not only the four club banks that make money in its literal sense. The fiat money is created by private banks as @martin_b mentioned. The private banks have a balance sheet that has only 2.5% true money (capital) and the remainder is accounting transformation between checking accounts and deposits towards credit/withdrawals. That system is viable until the next bank run.